To understand the historical context of our relations with Rome, you should see
the first phase as being the expansion of the Fraternity, then there were the consecrations,
then came the contact-with-Rome phase. After 2000, it was Rome that made
contact. 2000 was the jubilee year, the year of forgiveness. Cardinal Castrillon
Hoyos insisted that a solution will come very soon for us, but Bishop Fellay
said: “We do not trust , you want us to fall into line.” The policy of the Society
consists in waiting for Rome to show us some sign of goodwill (liberalization
of the Mass ). Later we would add the lifting of the excommunications . At that
time it was unthinkable [that Rome was worthy
of trust/that Rome would do such a thing
]. [Then there would be the doctrinal discussions to show the real problems.]
Then came Benedict
XVI, who knew our case very well. Already in 2002, he said [to Dr. Barth]: “The
cohabitation of two rites together in the Church is impossible; we must [therefore ‘catholicize’ /reform] the
New Mass [based on the former].”
[The Motu Proprio was in the air,] then there was the 2006 Chapter meeting which
was very fortuitous (as have been some
encyclicals there were several hundred of them and to which one no longer refers). You know:
we can make Archbishop Lefebvre say anything if we go back over his writings,
everything and its opposite because everything is tied to circumstances. [The 2006
Chapter showed that a certain distrust towards Rome was still present. Towards
the end of this Chapter, a priest slipped a note under the door of the
Secretary to plead for: “no practical agreement.”] In 2006, no one thought that
the Pope would follow up with [the preconditions] . On 7 October 2007, the Pope
issued his Motu Proprio. Bishop
Tissier himself said to me on that day: “This is a victory; it is the biggest
event since the coronation of Pius XII.” And now the “pseudo- resistance”
criticizes the Motu Proprio; it’s hypocritical , especially when we know that
the Pope had all the curia against him. [Of course, the Motu Proprio is not perfect.] this Motu Proprio is a prerequisite
and the Pope knows that one can not move too quickly.
The moment the
pope withdrew the excommunication, he was attacked by the Curia and in our
ranks, there was the Williamson affair. This [was/is] not worth the effort, nor
the time to “criticize the plot.” If the Pope had known what Williamson thought,
he would not have lifted the excommunication. We should not forget that the Pope
is German and that this subject is very difficult for them. [Then] the Pope
said: “We must discuss this,” and this is an affront to all the curia and the
bishops: the world knew about it, except us! On 4 June 2009, there was a meeting
in Rome with Bishop Fellay, Fr. Pfluger, Fr. du Chalard. The cardinal was very
nice ... (sic) . He told us that for a long time, they had an internal problem
with the bishops. [We did not understand Vatican II: religious liberty, the Council
wanted to only allow us to able to go into Muslim countries. Quanta Cura, etc. This is not the
problem.
After the discussions, we are waiting for a result of these discussions. [But
in fact] they offered us a text to studied, to sign. It is clear we can not
sign it, but we see that Rome did everything it could. It wants a solution, a regularization of the Society. Hoyos made
proposals. But at that time, there was already a strong opposition in the Society.
There is a small group that does not want contact with Rome. Rome pressed and
required a response before the end of November. The Bishop answered that we cannot follow and this was a humiliation for Rome.
The Carmel reacted and not with a noble attitude. Inside there is strain and
division, it is heating up and all that is ridiculous.
Bishop Fellay is very hesitant, not on the fundamentals, but when and how to
act without ourselves splitting with Rome. In March, the Pope’s office informed
us that the Pope wanted the regularization despite the Curia’s opposition, but
the bottom line is that everyone wants to save face: Rome with Vatican II and
us with the Williamson nonsense. Cardinal Levada said: “If you do not sign, it
is because you do not recognize the Pope.” And Bishop Fellay does not want to
risk excommunication for refusing recognition of the magisterium . The letter
of 3 bishops, it was seriously imprudent, was not in the spirit of Archbishop
Lefebvre. In fact, a little later , Bishop de Galarreta apologized for the
letter saying that if he had known the contents of the January documents
(possibility to criticize ) he would not have acted so. And that of course,
that remains between us, especially do not put it on the internet! (He said
with a knowing look.)
Imagine that the Pope calls Menzingen and Bishop Fellay answers, “I am not
available, call back later.” It is not possible! And yet, he is faced with the
problem of the Society, especially with this ecclésiovacantiste speech by
Bishop Tissier and so we cannot look like sedevacantists . The text [that the Pope
was on the verge of signing/proposed by the Society] had been found to be more
demanding than that of the Archbishop in 1988. And yet the Pope did not sign
despite all announcements he made and the Ecclesia Dei commission becomes more
demanding, then Fr. Pfluger [?] asked the cardinal, “Where did this new
requirement come from?” Answer: “We were all in agreement until May, but after
some have been putting pressure on the Pope.” Especially after what Bishop
Tissier said, “the Council is not a true council.” Cardinal Ladaria reminded
the Pope who, obviously, cannot change his decision. In the Society we were
very upset, our position is not clear in relation to the Council, if it is not
given magisterial authority. So we are no longer Catholic.
The
pseudo-resistance: these priests are[very unbalanced /reckless ] people, cases.
One has the impression that it is a state of mind. The question today is not
whether to trust, they want to impose upon us, for the current situation, for
today, a prudence which was that of Archbishop Lefebvre in his time, for his era, in his circumstances. It is not honest.
All these
departures are a purification for the Society and must be seen as a blessing ,
even if it hurts because maybe these are colleagues with whom we got along well.
The Society’s irregular
situation may be a punishment because it is focused on errors, they treat and have treated the Pope like a
student. They systematically judge the texts that come from Rome, on principle and
it is very serious! [One is almost glad that the Church is being ridiculed, happy
with each error.] Since 2006, we have lost [60/66] priests and it is not
because of Rome, while the Fraternity of St. Pierre, where there have about 250
[priests], they have had almost no departures. There really is a problem. [Of
course we have to maintain our line.] The Church is being humiliated, we must
be like the Good Samaritan , we must love her. We have idealized our fight and
it has become an obsession to hit at the other institutions. [Of course they
are not perfect, but neither are we.] We understand the pope is critical of
clericalism . We have met with some of the bishops, they called us to Rome, and
we, we were happy when Rome is seen badly. God can not bless the attitude of
those who do not want to go re-enter the fold because there might be a wolf. [A
priest (bishop?) of the Society has even said: “Even if the Society’s chapels were
empty, it would not matter, what matters is that we keep the faith.”] Faith is at
the service of the apostolate.
The [April] text is circumstantial, [minimal]. Maybe not the best and some say pitiful,
it dogmatizes its interpretation and they imposed it on Bishop Fellay . [It had
been seen by the Society’s theologians, who found it very good. Others say it
is pathetic, that it is not Catholic! They have dogmatized an interpretation,
an opinion.]
We must be careful: in our own ranks we are not all in agreement about the
concept of the magisterium, there are even 5 theories (Bishop Tissier, Fr.
Gleize ... ) We must not dogmatize and impose a view on a superior. Certainly we
must not change positions, but the circumstances have changed. Those who resist
the superiors are few but limited, like Chazal . In 2007, Bishop Williamson's
theory was: “ad infra decisions fall
within the jurisdiction of the Council, but what is ad extra comes under the jurisdiction of the bishops.”
So, in fact, everyone is [Pope against the Superior General] . behind this opposition
there is fear on the one hand, on the other hand : “Rome does not interest us.”
[“We are the Church.”]
Bishop Tissier dares to say : “Where there is true faith, there is the Church.”
Watch out, this is also what Luther said. In relation to the liberation of the
Mass, they were against it being classified as an extraordinary rite, but it is
hysteria to quibble about it! It should be clear, this is not serious, it has
become an existential problem—what do you care if Bishop Fellay writes to Rome?
[In 1988, Archbishop Lefebvre said nothing to the committee of what he was
going to do in Rome. Archbishop Lefebvre had always kept in touch with Rome, yet
remaining firm.]
We are full of a spirit of self-sufficiency. We have everything. But watch out,
as a matter of principle God does not need us. The Society is going to be
purified of members who are not wanted
by us and it is a grace for it [the Society].
Fr. Rioult, for
example, I know him well—he’s a clown. He knows nothing and judges everything! Those
people, they can’t help it, they must judge the Pope. They focus on the 5% that
is bad, even if 95% of Vatican II is good; it is idealism.
St Pius X in his reform did not act that way. He did not condemn everyone and fire
all the seminary and university professors! What nonsense to react this way! If
some need to be reassured, in Menzingen they always say the old Mass (general
laughter). We must pay attention to grace that passes and does not return, as
St Augustine said. The hour is grave, you do not need to make a fool of
yourself in front of the Church, with regards to history.
A Brother’s Question :
“In Tradition, they are still disturbed by what will happen in April. How are
we to react?”
[Note from Non Possumus: this is
referring to the “canonization” of John Paul II.]
Answer:
First, do not be
shocked. This is another concept of holiness compared to what we have.
But it has always been like that in the Church, each pope beatified his
predecessor ! Imagine a priest who spends his time criticizing the Pope, Vatican II. And then? No, we
must go on! [We must sometimes attack, sometimes advance, sometimes. . . We cannot
spend our time attacking. We must know, but also explain the faith.]
It is urgent to understand that we must not saw off the branch. [If a bishop in
his diocese unconditionally gives a church, can one accept it? If the Pope does
it, but we have guarantee of being able to continue the fight and to be
relatively protected against the local bishops, Archbishop Lefebvre said that we
could accept it.]
You must leave it to the Superior General, he has enough to worry about that!
To understand the situation, we must see that those who are against it, our Lord speaks, saying: “They
have ears and do not hear, eyes and do not see (but do not understand).” Think, it’s
possible that the Pope is renew contact with us. This pope is unpredictable! Then
Bishop Fellay will say to him, “You're not the Pope”? No, everything depends on
the situation.
You know, Archbishop Lefebvre was always a very practical, very pragmatic man,
and he always said: “If it's good for the Church, we take it, we do.” [In I984,
at the time of the motu proprio on
the Mass, Archbishop Lefebvre said that it was a foot in the door, even though the
motu proprio required recognition of
the new Mass.]
You know, we are facing a French problem. [Someone told me:] The French have
always been betrayed—it’s a historical problem: betrayal by the Revolution, the
Vendée, Leo XIII and the ‘ralliement,’ Algeria . . . But Leo XII was just realistic about the Republic. For
example, you cannot imagine going to get your gas at so and so’s place because
he is Catholic. You go to the cheapest place. The same applies to the choice of
dentist : it is based on urgency, availability and not one because he is Catholic!
[One day, I said to Fr. de Cacqueray: “When you were out in Amiens, if the
bishop or the mayor gave you a church, would
you refuse it because the mayor is gay and a Freemason?” We must be realistic.]
Reality is not black and white! It does not need to be simplistic, like Bishop
Williamson. Those who react against the Superior say they are fighting for the
Faith. No, each one is actually fighting for his own idea. God can not bless
those who spread such an evil spirit. The problem today is not the same as in
1988. [That was then a matter of conscience, this is by design.] Today we have
to face up to the evil spirit. So what do we do? Above all, assume that the
Superior wants the best! When things go wrong, when the Faith is in danger, it’s
obvious!